Curse

Arrogant Bastard · Nov 23, 2010, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

A few things:

Don't bring two Splinter Weapons. A lot of the time, heroes will actually cast them over one another and overwrite each others' spells.

Don't put Orders and Barbs/Mark of Pain on the same hero. It can be done, but the hero has trouble juggling all of those spells and this is partially the reason why people say heroes are bad with curses. If you want a Barbs/Mark of Pain, you really have to devote that hero to it so that it uses them consistently and intelligently.

I don't recommend running RoJ on a hero if you run Hundred Blades, as it'll cause everything to scatter, and your job as a 100b warrior is to make everything surround you so you can make it all explode.

This is what I run now with 100b:

I'm sure there are better 100b setups out there. I actually haven't fully tested this in HM either. I used to run a paragon in place of Livia, but I decided I wanted Barbs/MoP back.

Individually, the heroes use their skills exceptionally well. Vekk has managed to outperform nearly every human monk I've ever played with and can singlehandedly keep the group alive in HM.

A few things: I probably don't need Signet of Lost Souls or Order of Pain, but I bring them just in case, because you don't want to confuse the little hero AI with too many weird skills to use. Their skillset affects the order in which they cast their spells.

As for SoH, I have plenty of energy with a vampiric weapon. Been running it that way for a year. You also never run out of energy with one of these.

Bringing SoH yourself is a terrible idea. It's better to let your SoS bring it since Rits can afford to go 12/12/3, and smite hex/condition can help.

I never found orders to be worth it with only 1 melee. An MM, another rit hero, or even an RoJ monk (bring higher spec SoH and switch SoS to split resto heals or curses) will be better.

I usually go with the MM since they provide a lot of utility: body block and clean up damage if foes try to run to your backline or in extended battles, extra damage and mitigation via curses (mop, barbs, EB), extra prots if needed, and a decent place to slot a res.

Captain Bulldozer · Nov 23, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

This is a warrior bar that has no Increased Attack speed skill. You might wanna fix that. Also, a run skill is generally a good idea. I'd say cyclone axe could be replaced with something which has a bit more utility... like brawling headbutt, to help interrupt nasty skills. Ditch Lion's comfort and let your healers do their job. Maybe I'm just not that good at playing warrior, but I find that I usually end up chasing foes around, rather than them surrounding me, so cyclone attack (and/or whirling attack) might be replaced by something which allows you to cause deep wounds or KDs/Interrupts.

Also, its probably not a problem, but your elite is dedicated to energy attacks basically, yet you're also trying to be beefy with regards to adrenaline (with SY and FGJ). SY alone makes this seem appealing, but it might work better to chose an elite which suits that style more, rather than splitting your resources. Something like Dragonslash would probably fit better.

I mostly run a knock down warrior (whether with hammers or YMLaD and Brawling Headbutt), which I find to be a great asset... the KDs mean you don't have to chase foes as much, plus you get interrupts on top of that. Might be something to try... maybe its not the "best" out there but it sure is fun to play. Good hunting.

Terek Zelta · Nov 23, 2010, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy The Mage

It looks like hexes and conditions would become a big problem when running this build. I mean, I`m not too sure how capable henchies are at removing ALL hexes and conditions from you for the 5s that Foul Feast is recharging x_x

You bring hex removal on Vekk is all. Simple. Hexes in PVE are never that big a deal for me, so I generally don't run hex removal. It's impossible to make a hero build that's prepared to deal with every little thing, so you change it up a bit depending on the area you're going into is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Bringing SoH yourself is a terrible idea. It's better to let your SoS bring it since Rits can afford to go 12/12/3, and smite hex/condition can help.

That's not a rit. I think you missed the point of why I went curses. I went curses for Barbs and MoP, arguably, two absolutely essential skills when using 100b.

SoH is not a bad idea on a warrior so long as you have energy, and I always do. It's the only way to get SoH, Splinter, Infuse Health, Orders and Barbs/MoP in one group. I have the energy to spare, so why not, exactly? That's a rhetorical question by the way.

As for RoJ - read what I said before. Not to sound confrontational, but if you're going to contradict me, at least read my posts.

As for Orders, they work beautifully with my sin and warrior friends, as well as Devona, Aidan, Zho, Lukas and Talon Silverwing, some of whom use Dragon Slash. It's neat, because I can bring one of them instead of some random healer henchmen.

Minion master is good, except for Vekk likes to infuse zombies. Not to mention it's harder to ball up monsters when you have a minion wall running straight at the enemy. Overall, it's doable, but not ideal. People like it because it provides distractions, but with SY and an infuser, you don't need those distractions. I just VQ'ed with the build and it worked beautifully with only Vekk as the healer.

All builds can be criticized, but this is because there are a thousand ways to play the game. I don't like using minions or gimmicks as a crutch anymore, so I try to find new ways of doing things.

Edit: I'll make an addendum here and add that I set those heroes up to specifically work around their bad AI. You could, for example, put Barbs/MoP with Orders, but the hero will have too much to do too quickly, and so they end up being slow.

Just because a hero has a skill on its bar doesn't mean it'll use it as well as it should, so when you're making a hero team, you have to balance their skills with their crummy AI.

Chthon · Nov 24, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Regarding IAS stances:

1. Drunken Master is unquestionably the best choice IF you have the alcohol/rock candy/essence of celerity necessary to get it up to 33% AND a free PvE slot to dedicate to IAS.

2. Because of its long recharge, if Drunken Master is on your bar, it should be the only stance on your bar. Canceling Drunken Master is not a good idea.

3. Frenzy is the best choice whenever Drunken Master is not. The double damage penalty is not nearly as bad as it seems. First, a good backline can simply mitigate it. (By "good backline" I mean ER ele, ST rit, or hybrid monk with PS who pays attention. Two of the three are available in hero variants.) Second, if you like, you can bring a "cancel stance" to end Frenzy whenever you draw dangerous attention. Rush is a popular choice. So is Enraging Charge.

4. Flail is a generally poor choice disproportionately favored by players who lack experience with backlines that can support Frenzy and/or lack skill with stance canceling. The self-snare effect is a gigantic problem because it makes it very hard to hit a fleeing foe or move on to a new target. While you can use a cancel stance with Flail, (1) you need something that will be available frequently enough that you can use it at least as often as you need to change to a new target -- which pretty much means Rush and Dash are the only choices, and (2) if you're already dedicating 2 skillslots for IAS+cancel, you might as well make it Frenzy+cancel. Flail remains a decent choice for heroes because of their inability to use Drunken Master, exceptionally foolish use of Frenzy, and lack of ability to stance cancel Frenzy. (Failing to cancel Flail at least does not get them killed.)

5. Flurry is only suitable for dagger and IW users that don't deal meaningful base damage to start with.

6. Everything else available to W/X, such as Tiger Stance, has some sort of hopeless problem (usually uptime) that should be obvious to you.

--------

Regarding WW+Cyclone Axe:

The following is wrong:

Quote:

Originally Posted by xPc

You don't really need two AoE attacks. All they're really doing is triggering multiple splinter weapon procs in one action and unless you bring multiple splinters or have a human rit, you'll only need one for this.

A few attack skills excepted (most notably Death Blossom), the damage from (good) physicals comes almost entirely from stacked armor-ignoring buffs. Your damage will depend on the simple equation [damage = buffs x packets]. Since the buffs are coming from the midline and out of your control, your job is to focus on making more packets:

1. Even without considering the synergy between them (1.2 below), simply alternating Cyclone Axe and Whirlwind Attack is going to significantly increase your packet output over having only one of them by increasing the frequency with which you can use a multi-hit attack.

2. Note that Cyclone Axe uses energy and generates adrenaline -- quite a bit if you hit a decent sized mob with it. Note also that Whirlwind Attack uses adrenaline and can generate energy if you swap to a zealous axe -- quite a bit if you hit a decent sized mob with it. This positive feedback loop makes it possible to use both attacks more frequently than you otherwise could. chrisbendsurmind hit on what is probably the best gimmick axe has going for it on his (her? Hard to tell with chris.) first attempt.

3. xPc did, however, hit on an important, but often overlooked, point about Splinter: You do not increase Splinter's damage output by using all the triggers at once; you only increase its "spikiness." 5 triggers is still 5 triggers. (Triggering Splinter more often increases its damage only in the rare case that your team is able to maintain a copy on everyone who attacks and could cast even more copies faster if you could use up your old copies faster.)

----

Regarding Asuran Scan:

It's a very potent skill. The only reason not to bring it is that SY! and Whirlwind Attack should probably be glued to your bar, and you may have a third PvE skill that also contributes more to your build than Asuran Scan would.

------

Regarding chrisbendsurmind's move over to the sword line:

1. Good choice.

2. Here's a pretty standard 100B build. From reading the above you should be able to understand why it differs from Terek Zelta's build.
12+1+1 sword, 12+1 strength
"Save Yourselves!"
Brawling Headbutt/Asuran Scan
Sun and Moon Slash
Whirlwind Attack
Hundred Blades
Frenzy
Enraging Charge/Rush/Enduring Harmony
"For Great Justice!"

3. Regarding Terek Zelta's hero builds:

3.1. MoP is a remarkably powerful skill and has an amazing synergy with 100B+WW. Unfortunately, it also has a 20sec recharge; the hero AI has no conception of where to place it for maximum effect (or even any effect); and the hero AI is terrible with AP, the skill humans use to bypass MoP's awful recharge. While pairing up with a human necro running AP+MoP is very highly desirable (for example, it can 2+6hero Mallyx HM without requiring cons), hero performance with MoP is so poor it's really not worth bothering.

3.2. Splinter and SoS (especially Splinter) suffer badly for being placed on a X/Rt instead of Rt/X. Don't do this.

3.3. Depending on who you ask, the hero AI's usage of ARage is somewhere between questionable and awful. Much like MoP, it's a good skill for humans that's hard to justify on a hero bar because of the AIs' shortcomings. Not quite as bad as MoP, but still only worth using as "filler."

3.4. The E/N ER-Orders is a silly build. As compared to a N/X, it loses 4 ranks of Blood Magic in exchange for self-healing it doesn't really need (and e-management it definitely doesn't need). Run Orders on N/X and let the backline take care of healing the hp sacs.

3.5. ER Infuser hero is an amazing build (though still far less amazing than the corresponding player build) and anyone who doesn't have one should get one. I do note that Terek Zelta's build includes two skills that, while not bad choices, are generally non-optimal - SoA and Vigorous Spirit.

Arrogant Bastard · Nov 24, 2010, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

You bring hex removal on Vekk is all. Simple. Hexes in PVE are never that big a deal for me, so I generally don't run hex removal. It's impossible to make a hero build that's prepared to deal with every little thing, so you change it up a bit depending on the area you're going into is all.

That's not a rit. I think you missed the point of why I went curses. I went curses for Barbs and MoP, arguably, two absolutely essential skills when using 100b.

SoH is not a bad idea on a warrior so long as you have energy, and I always do. It's the only way to get SoH, Splinter, Infuse Health, Orders and Barbs/MoP in one group. I have the energy to spare, so why not, exactly? That's a rhetorical question by the way.

As for RoJ - read what I said before. Not to sound confrontational, but if you're going to contradict me, at least read my posts.

As for Orders, they work beautifully with my sin and warrior friends, as well as Devona, Aidan, Zho, Lukas and Talon Silverwing, some of whom use Dragon Slash. It's neat, because I can bring one of them instead of some random healer henchmen.

Minion master is good, except for Vekk likes to infuse zombies. Not to mention it's harder to ball up monsters when you have a minion wall running straight at the enemy. Overall, it's doable, but not ideal. People like it because it provides distractions, but with SY and an infuser, you don't need those distractions. I just VQ'ed with the build and it worked beautifully with only Vekk as the healer.

All builds can be criticized, but this is because there are a thousand ways to play the game. I don't like using minions or gimmicks as a crutch anymore, so I try to find new ways of doing things.

Edit: I'll make an addendum here and add that I set those heroes up to specifically work around their bad AI. You could, for example, put Barbs/MoP with Orders, but the hero will have too much to do too quickly, and so they end up being slow.

Just because a hero has a skill on its bar doesn't mean it'll use it as well as it should, so when you're making a hero team, you have to balance their skills with their crummy AI.

I read your post, the only thing I overlooked was your SoS being a necro, which is a bad choice when you can bring a rit instead.

I'll break it down retard style since you can't read:

1) Don't bring SoH on yourself. If you need this explained, then you probably shouldn't be giving out advice.
2) Orders isn't worth it on 1 melee. If you bring melee heroes/henchmen you are doing it wrong. If you bring a friend, then Orders is a good option, but as a default hero slot it blows.
3) RoJ works fine if you know what you are doing.
4) ER heroes work fine with MM's.
5) MM won't mess up with balling significantly if you flag and/or use Enraging Charge.
6) You can bring MoP/Barbs with the changes I suggested.
7) Vanquishing an area isn't proof that your build is optimal.

That is all.

ogre_jd · Nov 24, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. Frenzy is the best choice whenever Drunken Master is not.

Except, of course, in Warrior's Endurance and other low-adrenaline builds where Burst of Aggression leaves it in the dust. And it's not so bad even in adrenaline-based builds as long as you're careful.

Quote:

The double damage penalty is not nearly as bad as it seems. First, a good backline can simply mitigate it. (By "good backline" I mean ER ele, ST rit, or hybrid monk with PS who pays attention. Two of the three are available in hero variants.) Second, if you like, you can bring a "cancel stance" to end Frenzy whenever you draw dangerous attention. Rush is a popular choice. So is Enraging Charge.

Sprint is better. Don't always have the adrenaline needed to use Rush when you need it to cancel Frenzy (and, yes, that has killed me at least twice) and the recharge on Enraging Charge is just too long.

Quote:

2. Note that Cyclone Axe uses energy and generates adrenaline -- quite a bit if you hit a decent sized mob with it. Note also that Whirlwind Attack uses adrenaline and can generate energy if you swap to a zealous axe -- quite a bit if you hit a decent sized mob with it. This positive feedback loop makes it possible to use both attacks more frequently than you otherwise could. chrisbendsurmind hit on what is probably the best gimmick axe has going for it on his (her? Hard to tell with chris.) first attempt.

Of course, given that the foes run around like headless chickens after the squishies and you needing to save your IMS for a cancel stance or, in the case of Enraging Charge, an adrenaline builder, it tends to be rare that you hit more than 2 foes at a time (not counting when you hit an enemy Ritualist still sitting on his spirits).

Arrogant Bastard · Nov 24, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Except, of course, in Warrior's Endurance and other low-adrenaline builds where Burst of Aggression leaves it in the dust. And it's not so bad even in adrenaline-based builds as long as you're careful.

Sprint is better. Don't always have the adrenaline needed to use Rush when you need it to cancel Frenzy (and, yes, that has killed me at least twice) and the recharge on Enraging Charge is just too long.

Huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Frenzy is the best choice whenever Drunken Master is not. The double damage penalty is not nearly as bad as it seems. First, a good backline can simply mitigate it. (By "good backline" I mean ER ele, ST rit, or hybrid monk with PS who pays attention. Two of the three are available in hero variants.) Second, if you like, you can bring a "cancel stance" to end Frenzy whenever you draw dangerous attention. Rush is a popular choice. So is Enraging Charge.

That is all.

Life Bringing · Nov 24, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Of course, given that the foes run around like headless chickens after the squishies and you needing to save your IMS for a cancel stance or, in the case of Enraging Charge, an adrenaline builder, it tends to be rare that you hit more than 2 foes at a time (not counting when you hit an enemy Ritualist still sitting on his spirits).

This is really more of a problem with how you approach and agro mobs rather than an actual difficulty in hitting multiple foes. You should almost always be hitting 2+ foes, except when the fight is almost over

chrisbendsurmind · Nov 24, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Responding to all of this, first of all I can't thank everyone enough for showing me the right(and wrong lol) skills and ways to do this. After experimenting I found the 100 blades build was more effective when I was soloing with henchies because I was able to Agro a huge group, cast 100 blades with enchantments, and as soon as I saw that hexes were cast (which didn't take long) I used whirlwind 1 time and it killed the whole mob. That seems crazy to me but I'm not complaining. The axe build worked better when I was with a group of players since everyone typically thinks they are amazing and trys to lead which makes it hard to Agro not to mention not having hero's to cast enchants and hexes.

I am still deciding on wether to bring RoJ or MM. After doing a little thinking I kinda thought it might be better to bring and ele with meteor shower and glyph of sacrifice but idk when I get back on I will try some different things out. I also found Order of Pain to be a bit of a waste because the hero's aren't good at deciding when to cast it. For now I am keeping it because I cannot think of anything else to add. The way I am running it ATM is 1 rit SoS+splinter and SoH, 1 necro running mark of pain, barbs, and weaken armor. And 1 ER infuser.

Those are just the main skills but since I am currently on my iPod when I have access to my computer I will post all the builds I am using.

If anyone is still interested in helping me make this the best it could be he builds will probably be posted in a few hours. If you have any suggestions or things you would like to add before hand, feel free

Arrogant Bastard · Nov 24, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbendsurmind

Responding to all of this, first of all I can't thank everyone enough for showing me the right(and wrong lol) skills and ways to do this. After experimenting I found the 100 blades build was more effective when I was soloing with henchies because I was able to Agro a huge group, cast 100 blades with enchantments, and as soon as I saw that hexes were cast (which didn't take long) I used whirlwind 1 time and it killed the whole mob. That seems crazy to me but I'm not complaining. The axe build worked better when I was with a group of players since everyone typically thinks they are amazing and trys to lead which makes it hard to Agro not to mention not having hero's to cast enchants and hexes.

I am still deciding on wether to bring RoJ or MM. After doing a little thinking I kinda thought it might be better to bring and ele with meteor shower and glyph of sacrifice but idk when I get back on I will try some different things out. I also found Order of Pain to be a bit of a waste because the hero's aren't good at deciding when to cast it. For now I am keeping it because I cannot think of anything else to add. The way I am running it ATM is 1 rit SoS+splinter and SoH, 1 necro running mark of pain, barbs, and weaken armor. And 1 ER infuser.

Those are just the main skills but since I am currently on my iPod when I have access to my computer I will post all the builds I am using.

If anyone is still interested in helping me make this the best it could be he builds will probably be posted in a few hours. If you have any suggestions or things you would like to add before hand, feel free

Just turn your curse Necro to a MM and spec 10+1 into curses.

chrisbendsurmind · Nov 24, 2010, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Just turn your curse Necro to a MM and spec 10+1 into curses.

Oh wow I can't believe I didn't think of that after all the complicated things I was considering. I even considered going w/n with the totally changed demonic flesh but threw that idea out because it just wasn't worth it.

ogre_jd · Nov 24, 2010, 10:04 PM // 22:04

And if you're going to do *that*, spec a little lower and get 9 Restoration so your Necro can plop down Life (which will go for 100 when it ends; almost always lives out its full lifespan) for his minions. I've found the following helps my Olias a lot...

Death 11+2, Curses 8+1, Soul Reaping 8+1, Restoration Magic 9 (+Bloodstained insignia, 3 Survivor, a Radiant on the chest, two Attunement)
Animate Flesh Golem, Animate Bone Minions, Blood of the Master, Putrid Bile, Enfeebling Blood, Mark of Pain, Life, Flesh Of My Flesh (replace with Barbs or Weaken Armor if you don't care for your Hero to have a hard rez).

Proceeed to laugh.

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 24, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

And if you're going to do *that*, spec a little lower and get 9 Restoration so your Necro can plop down Life (which will go for 100 when it ends; almost always lives out its full lifespan) for his minions. I've found the following helps my Olias a lot...

Death 11+2, Curses 8+1, Soul Reaping 8+1, Restoration Magic 9 (+Bloodstained insignia, 3 Survivor, a Radiant on the chest, two Attunement)
Animate Flesh Golem, Animate Bone Minions, Blood of the Master, Putrid Bile, Enfeebling Blood, Mark of Pain, Life, Flesh Of My Flesh (replace with Barbs or Weaken Armor if you don't care for your Hero to have a hard rez).

Proceeed to laugh.

I wouldn't recommend this. You're trying to do too many things with one slot and none of them will be as effective as they should be. There is a massive difference between [email protected] and [email protected], especially with 100B. Minion Bombers will miss the damage and extra minions, but even more than that your build is missing Death Nova, which is essential for a MB. Heroes don't run Minion Masters very well so if that's what you were going for it's not working. The Resto stuff drains the core of the build to the point it's not really an MB or a Curse guy, it's just a guy with some minions and some watered-down utility on the side.

PS: You'd want to have an even number for Death to hit the next minion breakpoint.

Terek Zelta · Nov 25, 2010, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I'd like to address some things here and offer something more.

First: Heroes use MoP well enough. You just have to make sure you ping the right enemy. Sometimes they mess it up, but it's successful enough to be very usable in a 100b setup.

X/Rt's Splinter doesn't really suffer as much as some of you seem to believe it does. 10 is standard and plenty of people have used Splinter at 10 channeling magic to great effect. 10 is the breakpoint for 4 attacks, and since it's a backup skill that's arguably non-essential in this setup, it's fine. Splinter has never been the reason why my warrior has AoE'ed well. It's different for other classes and Triple Chop builds, though.

E/N orders versus N/X orders is a matter of opinion.

"Optimal" is also pretty subjective. SoA and Vigorous Spirit can be switched out for anything you want, like Aegis, condition/hex removal, etc. I use them because they're pretty idiot-proof and hard for the AI to mess up. Vekk likes to cast SoA on Sousuke while Sousuke sacs his health, but it has a short recharge and low energy cost, so it is, at worst, unnecessary, and at best, a nice preemptive prot that helps Sousuke stay alive should he be focused by the enemy. They both act as a cover enchants and and Vigorous Spirit synergizes well with Ether Renewal to boot, so they help, even if they aren't absolutely necessary.

Frenzy is a terrible skill to use with 100b in my opinion. This is where Cthon and I have to agree to disagree. People act like Protective Spirit solves all of Frenzy's problems, but it doesn't. These people (no offense) tend to be mostly theorycrafters. All of the attacks that would normally do under 10% of your health, or are otherwise weak, are now doubled and are... not weak. You still die in 10 hits with Protective Spirit on you, assuming it doesn't get stripped, which is bad if you're nuking with 100b in HM, where enemies can surprise you with powerful nukes.

With 100b, you don't usually need the mobility of Frenzy anyway, so why risk it? This point, too, as Cthon suggested, makes Enraging Charge also a good complement to 100b setups. I don't use it because I don't need it with Mark of Fury on my orders hero.

It's not that "people who are bad prefer Flail," it's that "Protective Spirit doesn't magically resolve Frenzy's double damage drawback." In fact, I think it's generally easier for me to use Frenzy than use Flail.

Likewise, Asuran Scan is also not a very good skill to take here. The object is to AoE. 99% of the time, single enemies drop quickly, which also makes Asuran Scan kind of moot. Asuran Scan also has poor synergy with MoP; if you cast Asuran Scan on the enemy your hero has just used Mark of Pain on, it's going to die before it should, and you'll end up losing some valuable AoE. Note: That last sentence is theorycraft. In practice, it's probably easy to work around it, but why? Honestly.

Strength of Honor consumes less energy and has better synergy with Whirlwind Attack than Asuran Scan does, I guess is my point.

Arrogant Bastard: If you would read my posts, you'd see that I still addressed all of that. I'm not going to argue with you because I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I'm saying that I'm also right, and you're wrong on some of your points because you're being narrow-minded and elitist and you're just parroting the metagame snobbery that's transformed this game into Build Wars. This tells me that you don't have enough experience to have an adult discussion about it. Sorry, man.

chrisbendsurmind: If you want to run a MM, I use this:

Just a few notes: At first I didn't like how the MM used Barbs/MoP, but if you ping properly, it should work out great for you. I know it seems like the hero has too much to do, but it doesn't - it's actually really nice. Credit goes to PVXwiki for that build, which I initially laughed at, but then ate my own words - yum.

Extinguish can be replaced with any condition or hex removal. So can Vigorous Spirit for that matter.

The orders hero can be replaced with anything you want, but I think Sun and Moon Slash recharging itself (and SY) is enough to make it more than useful. With orders, you can use Sun and Moon Slash successively for 120+ damage under Dark Fury, which stacks up to huge damage, more than, say, a Spiteful Spirit necro hero would provide.

This setup also lets you leave out a healer henchman.

Typically, if you run an orders hero, I take an archer and warrior henchmen along for the ride. I have a soft spot for Emi, Talon Silverwing and Aidan, even though other players scoff at them.

The thing is, though, that this setup is kind of like putting all your eggs into one basket. But it works really well.

Basically, your guys' opinions are not the be-all and end-all of this game.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Edit: Typos. aah.

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 25, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

X/Rt's Splinter doesn't really suffer as much as some of you seem to believe it does. 10 is standard and plenty of people have used Splinter at 10 channeling magic to great effect. 10 is the breakpoint for 4 attacks, and since it's a backup skill that's arguably non-essential in this setup, it's fine. Splinter has never been the reason why my warrior has AoE'ed well. It's different for other classes and Triple Chop builds, though.

[email protected] = 420 damage = 70 DPS
[email protected] = 705 damage = 117.5 DPS.

47.5 DPS does make a noticable difference.

FoxBat · Nov 25, 2010, 09:52 PM // 21:52

When evaluating build options you really need to consider what strategy or playstyle you are approaching.

Are you going to take the time to flag your H/H back, run ahead and gather aggro, then pull back, balling your foes into a tight mob?

Or are you going to rush in, guns blazing, catch some enemies while others run past to your backline, and just kill things as you can?

The consequences of skill choice for these two approaches are dramatic. At one extreme, we could take a 100b warrior. All his heroes are oriented near single-mindedly at helping him ball a large mob and, once that is done, destroy them in a few seconds. He brings SoA and flail, not frenzy or SY, because he is going to take the brunt of the damage for the party simply to keep them balled on him. If he loses adrenaline from flail/frenzy swaps it is not that big a deal, because the majority of foes are being squashed in an all-or-nothing ball leading into an MoP spike. (which is again why the 20s recharge is not that big a deal.) Most resources are invested into the quick chaining of a few whirlwinds before his foes run, then the rest of damage is cleanup.

At the other extreme we have a dragonslash warrior. He can run in ahead with his heroes not far behind by virtue of powering near constant 100 armor to protect them. He uses frenzy because every extra adrenal skill push is one less d-slash he could've used. The majority of enemy damage is also typically not focused on his armor so frenzy has far fewer drawbacks. Rather than investing everything in an all-or-nothing spike with hero support, he will instead have general pressure from minions or spirits helping to kill things along with splinter/SoH and maybe even smite support.

Between these two extremes there is also a middle ground, but even negotiating which skill to bring for which strategy is complicated. And maybe one or the other approach is optimal, but you can't simply argue that skill A is better than skill B because skill A does X strategy better than Y strategy, without first establishing whether and where X is better than Y. Skills need to support your chosen strategy (aggro ball vs charging in) and not the other way around.

chrisbendsurmind · Nov 25, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I'd like to address some things here and offer something more.

First: Heroes use MoP well enough. You just have to make sure you ping the right enemy. Sometimes they mess it up, but it's successful enough to be very usable in a 100b setup.

X/Rt's Splinter doesn't really suffer as much as some of you seem to believe it does. 10 is standard and plenty of people have used Splinter at 10 channeling magic to great effect. 10 is the breakpoint for 4 attacks, and since it's a backup skill that's arguably non-essential in this setup, it's fine. Splinter has never been the reason why my warrior has AoE'ed well. It's different for other classes and Triple Chop builds, though.

E/N orders versus N/X orders is a matter of opinion.

"Optimal" is also pretty subjective. SoA and Vigorous Spirit can be switched out for anything you want, like Aegis, condition/hex removal, etc. I use them because they're pretty idiot-proof and hard for the AI to mess up. Vekk likes to cast SoA on Sousuke while Sousuke sacs his health, but it has a short recharge and low energy cost, so it is, at worst, unnecessary, and at best, a nice preemptive prot that helps Sousuke stay alive should he be focused by the enemy. They both act as a cover enchants and and Vigorous Spirit synergizes well with Ether Renewal to boot, so they help, even if they aren't absolutely necessary.

Frenzy is a terrible skill to use with 100b in my opinion. This is where Cthon and I have to agree to disagree. People act like Protective Spirit solves all of Frenzy's problems, but it doesn't. These people (no offense) tend to be mostly theorycrafters. All of the attacks that would normally do under 10% of your health, or are otherwise weak, are now doubled and are... not weak. You still die in 10 hits with Protective Spirit on you, assuming it doesn't get stripped, which is bad if you're nuking with 100b in HM, where enemies can surprise you with powerful nukes.

With 100b, you don't usually need the mobility of Frenzy anyway, so why risk it? This point, too, as Cthon suggested, makes Enraging Charge also a good complement to 100b setups. I don't use it because I don't need it with Mark of Fury on my orders hero.

It's not that "people who are bad prefer Flail," it's that "Protective Spirit doesn't magically resolve Frenzy's double damage drawback." In fact, I think it's generally easier for me to use Frenzy than use Flail.

Likewise, Asuran Scan is also not a very good skill to take here. The object is to AoE. 99% of the time, single enemies drop quickly, which also makes Asuran Scan kind of moot. Asuran Scan also has poor synergy with MoP; if you cast Asuran Scan on the enemy your hero has just used Mark of Pain on, it's going to die before it should, and you'll end up losing some valuable AoE. Note: That last sentence is theorycraft. In practice, it's probably easy to work around it, but why? Honestly.

Strength of Honor consumes less energy and has better synergy with Whirlwind Attack than Asuran Scan does, I guess is my point.

Arrogant Bastard: If you would read my posts, you'd see that I still addressed all of that. I'm not going to argue with you because I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I'm saying that I'm also right, and you're wrong on some of your points because you're being narrow-minded and elitist and you're just parroting the metagame snobbery that's transformed this game into Build Wars. This tells me that you don't have enough experience to have an adult discussion about it. Sorry, man.

chrisbendsurmind: If you want to run a MM, I use this:

Just a few notes: At first I didn't like how the MM used Barbs/MoP, but if you ping properly, it should work out great for you. I know it seems like the hero has too much to do, but it doesn't - it's actually really nice. Credit goes to PVXwiki for that build, which I initially laughed at, but then ate my own words - yum.

Extinguish can be replaced with any condition or hex removal. So can Vigorous Spirit for that matter.

The orders hero can be replaced with anything you want, but I think Sun and Moon Slash recharging itself (and SY) is enough to make it more than useful. With orders, you can use Sun and Moon Slash successively for 120+ damage under Dark Fury, which stacks up to huge damage, more than, say, a Spiteful Spirit necro hero would provide.

This setup also lets you leave out a healer henchman.

Typically, if you run an orders hero, I take an archer and warrior henchmen along for the ride. I have a soft spot for Emi, Talon Silverwing and Aidan, even though other players scoff at them.

The thing is, though, that this setup is kind of like putting all your eggs into one basket. But it works really well.

Basically, your guys' opinions are not the be-all and end-all of this game.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Edit: Typos. aah.

Thanks Terek, although I think you judging him on being an elitist and saying he is one of the people who are turning guild wars into build wars is a bit of a contradictory when you show me a setup from PvX wiki.....

I do like that setup a lot and I think that is what I will use although I am going to switch the 2nd build to n/rt and using splinter weapon so I can free up my warrior's skills and replacing rip enchantment and signet of souls with SoS and Spirit Siphon with the attribut points looking something like this: SR:8, blood magic:10, channeling magic 12 with a +2 -35 blood rune.

This sounds like the best to me, I am probably going to pretty stubbornly sticking to this because I like it, but like I usually say if you see any flaws in this or ways to improve it or just want to say it looks good, feel free to say so! Thanks again everyone

P.S Terek, what are you using to show the build like that? I searched it but I could not find it?

edit: I would also like to add I almost always flag my hero's and ball with a warrior. While this may take a little time the like 5 sec kill from the spike is well worth it. the sos and mm work more as back up because you almost never get them balled perfectly without any breaking away, if they do become a problem I will change my strategy or build if neccesary but I doubt it will.

Chthon · Nov 26, 2010, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Terek Zelta's minion build is acceptable. Changes I would suggest:
1. No need for Masochism on a minion bomber build. You're not going to get meaningful attack damage from Bone Minions plus a few Jagged Horrors either way, and the extra damage on Death Nova is not worth a second skill slot.
2. No need for SoLS on the minion build; it should have adequate e-management just from SR.
3. Rez is optional if you can place it elsewhere. (Another reason to use N/Mo Orders instead of E/N.)
4. More desirable uses for the freed-up slots include:
4.1. Enfeebling Blood. One of the strongest debuffs in the game.
4.2. Foul Feast/Draw Conditions + Infuse Condition. Pretty much solves all condition problems and frees all condition-removal slots from other builds.
4.3. Hex removal.
4.4. Dwayna's Sorrow. Turns the MB into a diffuse party healer too.
4.5. Jagged Bones is probably the best Necro elite for this build, but it does not add so much that it cannot be replaced with a non-Necro elite. In situations where heavy removal is called for, consider running Signet of Removal or Empathic Removal (synergizes with Orders). Crazier variants go N/P for "It's Just a Flesh Wound" and "Fall Back" (the idea with those variants is to minimize cast time since DN is already 2sec; suspect you don't have enough attributes to split Death+Curse+SR+Command though).

Arrogant Bastard · Nov 26, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I'd like to address some things here and offer something more.

First: Heroes use MoP well enough. You just have to make sure you ping the right enemy. Sometimes they mess it up, but it's successful enough to be very usable in a 100b setup.

X/Rt's Splinter doesn't really suffer as much as some of you seem to believe it does. 10 is standard and plenty of people have used Splinter at 10 channeling magic to great effect. 10 is the breakpoint for 4 attacks, and since it's a backup skill that's arguably non-essential in this setup, it's fine. Splinter has never been the reason why my warrior has AoE'ed well. It's different for other classes and Triple Chop builds, though.

E/N orders versus N/X orders is a matter of opinion.

"Optimal" is also pretty subjective. SoA and Vigorous Spirit can be switched out for anything you want, like Aegis, condition/hex removal, etc. I use them because they're pretty idiot-proof and hard for the AI to mess up. Vekk likes to cast SoA on Sousuke while Sousuke sacs his health, but it has a short recharge and low energy cost, so it is, at worst, unnecessary, and at best, a nice preemptive prot that helps Sousuke stay alive should he be focused by the enemy. They both act as a cover enchants and and Vigorous Spirit synergizes well with Ether Renewal to boot, so they help, even if they aren't absolutely necessary.

Frenzy is a terrible skill to use with 100b in my opinion. This is where Cthon and I have to agree to disagree. People act like Protective Spirit solves all of Frenzy's problems, but it doesn't. These people (no offense) tend to be mostly theorycrafters. All of the attacks that would normally do under 10% of your health, or are otherwise weak, are now doubled and are... not weak. You still die in 10 hits with Protective Spirit on you, assuming it doesn't get stripped, which is bad if you're nuking with 100b in HM, where enemies can surprise you with powerful nukes.

With 100b, you don't usually need the mobility of Frenzy anyway, so why risk it? This point, too, as Cthon suggested, makes Enraging Charge also a good complement to 100b setups. I don't use it because I don't need it with Mark of Fury on my orders hero.

It's not that "people who are bad prefer Flail," it's that "Protective Spirit doesn't magically resolve Frenzy's double damage drawback." In fact, I think it's generally easier for me to use Frenzy than use Flail.

Likewise, Asuran Scan is also not a very good skill to take here. The object is to AoE. 99% of the time, single enemies drop quickly, which also makes Asuran Scan kind of moot. Asuran Scan also has poor synergy with MoP; if you cast Asuran Scan on the enemy your hero has just used Mark of Pain on, it's going to die before it should, and you'll end up losing some valuable AoE. Note: That last sentence is theorycraft. In practice, it's probably easy to work around it, but why? Honestly.

Strength of Honor consumes less energy and has better synergy with Whirlwind Attack than Asuran Scan does, I guess is my point.

Arrogant Bastard: If you would read my posts, you'd see that I still addressed all of that. I'm not going to argue with you because I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I'm saying that I'm also right, and you're wrong on some of your points because you're being narrow-minded and elitist and you're just parroting the metagame snobbery that's transformed this game into Build Wars. This tells me that you don't have enough experience to have an adult discussion about it. Sorry, man.

chrisbendsurmind: If you want to run a MM, I use this:

Just a few notes: At first I didn't like how the MM used Barbs/MoP, but if you ping properly, it should work out great for you. I know it seems like the hero has too much to do, but it doesn't - it's actually really nice. Credit goes to PVXwiki for that build, which I initially laughed at, but then ate my own words - yum.

Extinguish can be replaced with any condition or hex removal. So can Vigorous Spirit for that matter.

The orders hero can be replaced with anything you want, but I think Sun and Moon Slash recharging itself (and SY) is enough to make it more than useful. With orders, you can use Sun and Moon Slash successively for 120+ damage under Dark Fury, which stacks up to huge damage, more than, say, a Spiteful Spirit necro hero would provide.

This setup also lets you leave out a healer henchman.

Typically, if you run an orders hero, I take an archer and warrior henchmen along for the ride. I have a soft spot for Emi, Talon Silverwing and Aidan, even though other players scoff at them.

The thing is, though, that this setup is kind of like putting all your eggs into one basket. But it works really well.

Basically, your guys' opinions are not the be-all and end-all of this game.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Edit: Typos. aah.

You don't want to argue the points because a lot of the "proof" you have to back up your claims consist of things like:
- Plenty of people have used X
- In my opinion (when talking about game mechanics)

The game's mechanics aren't subjective. Just because you refuse to believe that Frenzy is the generally the best IAS skill for 100b doesn't make it so. If you are consistently dying with Frenzy on while pre-protting yourself, then the problem isn't Frenzy, it's you.

SoH vs Asura Scan = Strawman
The only person who suggested using scan with 100b was Chthon, while stating that MoP isn't optimal in hero builds. Therefore you are providing a counterpoint to a point that was never made; no one suggested using scan with MoP (although, as you have realized, you could just not use scan on the called target).
Then you use this piece as "evidence" to continue recommending running SoH on the warrior. This is not a good idea, stop recommending it.

E/N vs N/x orders is not a matter of opinion. N/x is generally better because you can have a higher spec orders and several options for a secondary (e.g. SoH, resto, etc).

Oh and your whole anti-elitism, anti-metagame, "I'm better than you 'cus I use different things" attitude...
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

That is all.

Premium Unleaded · Nov 26, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

IMO, if you're going to be taking an orders slave, then giving it an active secondary role, like a resto bar as you're suggested, is completely counterproductive. As for ER vs runes, it is a matter of opinion, because there are more than a few people, including myself, that would say ER is a better orders slave unless you only want to run OotV. You can always stick SoH on another hero, like ER prot/infuser, spirits or minions.